Why You Need a Salary Goal at the Start of Your Job Search, with Dorothy Mashburn
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It’s inevitable; you’re in an interview and the hiring team asks what your expected salary is. Do you get nervous about that question? You don’t need to, says Find Your Dream Job guest Dorothy Mashburn. Dorothy says you should have a salary goal clarified before you even begin the job search. You do this by researching your market value, considering your skills and experience, and your ability to solve the problems of the hiring manager. Some simple math will get you to a salary range that you can feel confident sharing when the time comes.
About Our Guest:
Dorothy Mashburn is an interview and negotiation coach.
Resources in This Episode:
- Are you getting paid what you deserve? Find out by visiting Dorothy’s website at www.dorothymashburn.com/.
- Connect with Dorothy on LinkedIn.
Transcript
Find Your Dream Job, Episode 465:
Why You Need a Salary Goal at the Start of Your Job Search, with Dorothy Mashburn
Airdate: August 28, 2024
Mac Prichard:
This is Find Your Dream Job, the podcast that helps you get hired, have the career you want, and make a difference in life.
I’m your host, Mac Prichard. I’m also the founder of Mac’s List. It’s a job board in the Pacific Northwest that helps you find a fulfilling career.
Every Wednesday, I talk to a different expert about the tools you need to get the work you want.
Salary negotiation starts before you send your first application.
To get the pay you want, you need to set clear expectations for yourself.
Dorothy Mashburn is here to talk about why you need a salary goal at the start of your job search.
She’s an interview and a negotiation coach.
Dorothy is passionate about teaching women the skills they need to land great jobs that pay well.
She joins us from Phoenix, Arizona.
Well, let’s get going, Dorothy.
Why is it important to set a salary goal before you apply for a job?
Dorothy Mashburn:
Many of us, when we are negotiating for our salaries, we think of this as an afterthought almost. Many of the women that I coach, it’s all about preparation of interviews, how to get in the door, and then towards the end, typically, people will throw in, “How do I negotiate at the very end, my best salary?”
Well, in my experience, that almost puts you in a poor footing because now you’re working, you’ve already talked to your hiring team about all of the different ways you can make their life better, but you have not thought about how you’re going to translate that into a compensation conversation. However, if you have that mindset from the very beginning because you’re negotiation starts at first contact with the hiring team, whether it’s the recruiter or the hiring manager.
If you already have a goal in mind, for example, we say, I want $150K, and I’m going to set a range for myself that $145K to $185K is my sweet spot. If you know that ahead of time, every single conversation that you have with the hiring team, you can seed in some of those ideas ahead of time, but if you wait until the very end when the job offer time comes, then you haven’t had the opportunity to seed those special nuggets.
We can get into what those special nuggets could be later on, but when you have your first conversation, if you have an idea or a goal in mind, then you can set the strategy from that first conversation.
Mac Prichard:
How does having a salary goal, Dorothy, help you with your job search? I mean, you’re going to talk about the difference it can make in conversations with a hiring team, but when you’re going out and talking to people about what you want, you’re looking for positions, should you apply for jobs that don’t have a salary range, or should you be very specific, and how will that help you?
Dorothy Mashburn:
What I usually recommend is you must know at all times what your market value is, and I, of course, offer different ways that you can do that. Very briefly, what I recommend is that you triangulate the market value for yourself, and that could be done by going into a very generic site like Career Builder, Indeed, Glass Door. That’s one data set.
The second data set would be from more specific websites like Level FYI, Team Blind, HB1 Data, those are some options, and then the third, of course, you want to check with your peers and your network, possibly even your alumni group, to understand what it is that you’re market value is. If you don’t know that, think about yourself as a brand, as Dorothy Mashburn LLC or Mac LLC; if you were running a business, at most times, if you’re the CEO of your business, you must know what the market is valuing you at.
If you have that value in mind, then you’ll have every conversation based on that, so you’re not going to, say, you’re a director-level offered a market value, maybe $250K, and of course, this is the very generic example. If you have $250K, it’s unlikely that you would target the jobs that are the associates or the leads, and again, very generalized view here. The value that you place on yourself informs your job search, and then additionally, you’re not going to target those companies that generally have the reputation of not paying very well.
Knowing that value upfront really positions you to direct your job search in a way that benefits you.
Mac Prichard:
What happens, Dorothy, if you don’t know your market value? How does that affect your job search? What is going to happen to you as you apply for positions or talk to people?
Dorothy Mashburn:
The worst, of course, is that you’re going to get paid below market value. You would put yourself in a position where, in three to four months from the day you start, once the honeymoon phase is over, so to speak, you’ll start questioning. “Why am I working so hard and not getting paid my value?”
You’ve put yourself in a position where you can get more dissatisfied with the job that you land. The other piece is also, once you get the job and you start, you have lost the leverage with that company. However, if you had known your market value ahead of time and stood up for or advocated for yourself when you first started, that is the time when you have the most leverage, before you start a job with a company.
That is the time to really strongly advocate for yourself and secure that pay that you deserve, but if you undervalue yourself or if you don’t know your market value, then I promise you, inevitably, in six months, you will find out what others are making, even though many companies don’t encourage you to ask about salary, and then you’ll have this very dissatisfied feeling. It helps you, and it helps your future employer to know your market value and then definitely stand up for it.
Mac Prichard:
How does not knowing your market value and setting a salary goal in doing a job search affect your lifetime earnings over the course of a career, if you don’t do this kind of homework?
Dorothy Mashburn:
Yeah, so the math, anyone can crunch these numbers. If you’re in your 30s, if you miss out on $5K, for example, that, over the course of the rest of your career, can go up to millions of dollars, because first of all, you’re not just missing out on that $5K, you’re missing out on the foundation of your base salary from which the percentage increases happen for the rest of your career there or anywhere else.
That $5K is significantly more than people imagine it to be because it’s absolutely, your lifetime earnings can be in the millions if you miss that out. Which is why it’s so very important to really take the time, ahead of the job search, to put a number, to say, “This is what the value is of the skills or the basket of experience that I bring to my employer.
Mac Prichard:
You’ve shared how to determine your market value, the homework that you need to do to do that. You’re ready to start the search and go out and apply for positions. I want to just loop back for a moment.
Dorothy, what do you do if you see a position online, or someone shares a job posting with you, and there’s no salary range at all? Should you try to learn that number or just move on?
Dorothy Mashburn:
If there’s a fit, meaning if you believe that you can make a difference in this employer’s problem that they’re trying to solve, you, of course, base it on your credentials as well as the experiences that you’ve had. If you believe that there is a fit and there’s an opportunity for you to make a difference, absolutely, go for it. Definitely know your market value because even if they haven’t published it, you must know your market value and you must drive to secure that.
If they don’t have anything published, when you’re talking to the recruiter or whoever the first person you contact, ask for the budget for the role. Typically, now, many, many states have the salary transparency laws, et cetera, and so many of us know this. The question about the budget is an absolutely relevant one to ask, and then keep going. If you think that you can make a difference, I promise you, if there’s a hiring manager out there who has a gap, who doesn’t have a person in that seat, they’re feeling the pain of not having a person in that seat.
When you talk to that hiring manager, and you show them how you’re going to make their life better, the leverage of securing your market value is absolutely in your court. Try to get in front of that decision-maker, that hiring manager who is feeling the pain of day in and day out not having somebody solving that problem for them. You are in a great position, so keep going forward.
Mac Prichard:
Terrific. We’re going to take a break, Dorothy.
When we come back, I want to talk more about how to talk about salary and your market value when you’re in interviews and in conversations with the hiring team.
Stay with us. When we return, Dorothy Mashburn will continue to share her advice about why you need a salary goal at the start of your job search.
We’re back in the Mac’s List studio. I’m talking with Dorothy Mashburn
She’s an interview and a negotiation coach.
Dorothy is passionate about teaching women the skills they need to land great jobs that pay well.
She joins us from Phoenix, Arizona.
Now, Dorothy, before the break, we were talking about why you need a salary goal at the start of your job search, and you talked about the importance of that, the difference that it can make in your career earnings, and how to determine your market value, and apply that as you begin applying for jobs and talking to people about your goals.
Let’s talk about after you’ve sent out the applications and you’re in conversation with hiring managers and hiring teams. When you’re in an interview, for example, Dorothy, how does having a salary goal help you in a job interview?
Dorothy Mashburn:
The analogy that I use, Mac, is about building a house. If you want to build a house, every single foundation, the brick you lay, the drywall you put up, it all counts towards having this dream house that you want in the end. This is the same thing about your job. If you have the first conversation with your hiring team, usually, they’ll ask what your salary expectations are. If you have a market value in mind, and then you know exactly how to field that question in every single conversation, you sprinkle in what your value is, what you can bring to the team, and how you can solve their problems.
Once you have that first conversation, you are striking that right balance of that executive that you are and that you are going to bring to this team, and this is why it’s so important, and I emphasize it over and over again, that you must have the conversation about salary top of mind. It’s not just about getting the job, it’s about commanding the salary that you deserve.
Mac Prichard:
You know your market value, you have a target salary in mind, what’s your best advice, Dorothy, for answering that question that comes from the hiring team or a manager who says, “Well, what are your salary expectations?”
Dorothy Mashburn:
The best advice that I can give you is try to delay answering that question for as long as you possibly can. Now, there’s differing options here. Some people say, “Well, what about the anchoring effect?” Which means that the person who throws out the larger number wins, but in the case of an interview or an employer-to-employee relationship, the company usually has the best data about what market values are.
So, for you, as a candidate, when they ask you that question, try to punt it for later on in the conversation. You can say something like, “Well, let’s discuss a little bit more about what the job is and what the responsibilities are, and how I can add value, and then, certainly, I can provide an educated estimate on what I can bring to the table and how I will value my services that I will bring to you.”
Mac Prichard:
Why is it to your benefit as a candidate to delay that conversation or that answer about a specific number until later in the hiring process?
Dorothy Mashburn:
Many times, it’s common practice for job descriptions to be very generic, whether we like it or not. We can argue either way, but when you start having conversations with the hiring teams, you learn more about the challenges that the company is having, the marketing dynamic that they are in. So for you, if you go in thinking, ‘I think this job is worth $180K.” As you learn more, perhaps their goals are very, very lofty in an extremely saturated market.
You will unearth these nuggets throughout the interview process, and then you can tweak your salary expectations based on that. However, if you provide a range in the very beginning, it’s not impossible, but it becomes a little more difficult to retrace your steps and say, “Well, I need to reevaluate what salary is really going to take for me to come to this job.”
Mac Prichard:
You mentioned the importance of learning more about the job before answering that question with a specific number about salary expectations. Why is it important, Dorothy, as well, to learn more about an employer’s problems? How is that going to help you get your target salary?
Dorothy Mashburn:
You know, the really important thing about all interviews is really not about what you have done but what you are going to do for this employer.
Many times, people get into this habit of saying, “I have an MBA, I have a PhD, and I’ve done all of this.” But really, you haven’t told the employer how you’re going to bridge the gap that they’re feeling right now because they don’t have a person in that role.
When you start asking questions, “What are you trying to do? Are you trying to grow your business? Are you trying to cut costs? What is it that is a deficiency today that I can help solve?” When you start asking those questions, you will learn what those pain points are, and then you can say, “I have all of these experiences, and I can bring that to you. You want 20% market growth? I know exactly how to do it because I’ve done it.”
Then, when you position yourself as that problem solver, that hiring manager is going to think, “I want this person on my team at all costs.” And when that happens, that magic happens, that is when you have the leverage to command the salary that you rightfully deserve, and this is why it’s so important to ask for the problems that they’re trying to solve.
Mac Prichard:
Know your market value, learn about an employer’s problems in the interview conversations, as well as more about the job. When do you actually put a number out there, Dorothy, in order to get the target salary that you’ve set at the start of your job search?
Dorothy Mashburn:
Yeah, absolutely. Once you’ve learned a lot more and you feel ready to pitch yourself, and this typically should happen with your hiring manager, again, going back to the point of, the hiring manager is the one who is feeling the most pain, so when they eventually show an indication, even if they don’t outright say it, that you are the candidate that they are honing in on, that is the time to say, “Here is my salary range.”
Very quickly, your salary range should be a combination of your desired salary and your dream salary. If your desired salary is 180, very roughly, you can put another 20% to it and say, “180-206K. That is my salary range.” Your desired is your bottom of that range, and your dream is at the top of that range.
Mac Prichard:
Looking for a job and then interviewing and considering an offer, there are a lot of emotions that get invoked when that happens. How does knowing your market value and your target salary help you manage those emotions?
Dorothy Mashburn:
The biggest fear that I hear from clients and anyone else that I talk to is this worry about your job offer being rescinded, that is one big emotion, if you will. If you know your market value, and one of the exercises that we do in my coaching program is talking about your want portfolio. Besides your base salary, what else is important to you?
Any time that you feel that emotion, the fear, the anxiety, go back to that want portfolio, go back to the market value, and say, “I am negotiating for this brand,” Dorothy LLC or Mac LLC, “and if I were doing this for my business, I would absolutely go to battle for my business.” Transfer that concept to yourself when you’re advocating for yourself; that’s going to help you get past some of those anxieties and fears that naturally come up. Accept that, and lean into that.
Mac Prichard:
Well, it’s been a terrific conversation, Dorothy. Now, tell us, what’s next for you?
Dorothy Mashburn:
I want to continue to empower women in the workplace to fearlessly negotiate for themselves. That is a journey that I think is going to continue for a while. The gender pay gap is still an issue, so I want to continue to talk about that and make sure that women are standing up for their value and not giving in to the fears and anxieties that naturally come up, maybe because of our upbringing or social conditioning. Continuing with that leadership journey.
Mac Prichard:
Terrific. I know that listeners can learn more about you and your work by visiting your website, dorothymashburn.com, and you also invite listeners to connect with you on LinkedIn, and when they do reach out to you, please mention that you heard Dorothy on Find Your Dream Job.
Now, Dorothy, given all of the great advice that you’ve shared today, what’s the one thing you want a listener to remember about why you need a salary goal at the start of your job search?
Dorothy Mashburn:
The biggest thing that you need to remember is that, even if you only give up on a thousand dollars today, it’s going to magnify in a big way over your lifetime earnings. Keep reminding yourself of that, and when in doubt, always think of yourself as that brand or that LLC for which you are advocating or for which you are going to bat. That is going to pay dividends in the long run.
Mac Prichard:
Next week, our guest will be Heather Joy.
She’s the founder and owner of Write Path Resumes & Career Coaching.
Heather’s company specializes in career coaching with a focus on interviews, resumes, and LinkedIn profiles.
Every hiring manager you meet will want to know why you’re changing jobs.
Your response, especially if you were fired or laid off, can make a huge difference in getting an offer.
Join us next Wednesday when Heather Joy and I talk about how to explain why you left your last job.
Until next time, thanks for letting us help you find your dream job.
This show is produced by Mac’s List.
Susan Thornton-Hough schedules our guests and writes our newsletter. Lisa Kislingbury Anderson manages our social media.
Our sound engineer and editor is Matt Fiorillo. Dawn Mole creates our transcripts. And our music is by Freddy Trujillo.
This is Mac Prichard. See you next week.